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Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 23.10.2007. u 22:21 · pre 231 mesec #1
manje vise ljudi sa ovog foruma su upoznati sa problemom ove pumpe za dizel motore koja se ugradjivala mahom u Opele ali i druge marke

koliko sam ja upoznat i koliko sam shvatio, 95% kvarova na toj pumpi jeste pregrijavanje i crkavanje elektronskog sklopa na njoj (psg5, koji je inace kazu jedno hibridno integralno kolo, iako tvrde da crkava neki snazni tranzistor, odakle se to zna ako je to IC? postoji sema tog hibrida?)
posto imam dizel opela sa ovom pumpom i hvala Bogu jos radi ok a zelio bih da kolko tolko sprijecim crkavanje,
pitao sam se da li bi bilo od bilo kakve koristi postaviti jedan dodatni hladnjak na kucistu ovog problematicnog elektronskog sklopa

naravno gledao bih da bude sto veci, a na dodirnoj povrsini bih postavio silikonsku pastu (kvalitetnu koja se koristi kod racunarskih procesora )

razmisljao sam i o ventilatoru ali je prostor suvise skucen za njega

dakle da li bi bilo vajde od ovoga?

unaprijed zahvaljujem na bilo kakvom odgovoru.
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 23.10.2007. u 22:39 · pre 231 mesec #3
ok kapiram, od prevelike struje vjerovatno se samo sprzi kao osigurac :)
i to kazu obicno nastaje kad ostane bez goriva?

nasao sam u Ameriku sta rade na Cummins kamionima, napravili su indikator pritiska dovoda goriva i kad opadne ispod nekog nivoa vozacu se pali lampica i signalizira da ugasi motor, i tako prekine dovod struje i pumpa nece da crkne
naravno posle toga mora prvo da rijesi problem dovoda goriva, da izbaci vazduh i sl.

evo citiram


BD-Power Low Pressure Alarm LED Kit (RED)
NOTE: VP44 pumps do not come with low fuel pressure early warning sensor.
We reccomend the BD early warning light.

- Part # BD1081130
- Manufacturer: BD-Power
- Application: 98.5-07 Dodge 5.9L Cummins
The purpose of this kit is to indicate to the driver with the red LED, if the supply fuel pump pressure of the injection pump is dropping below 5psi. This simple easy to install device can save your injection pump from damage occured when straved for fuel.

Kit includes:
1 - 5psi Pressure Switch
1 - LED Assembly
2 - Female Blade Connectors
1 - Mini-Fuse Tapper
2 - Sealant Washers


preuzeto sa sjta http://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/


Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 23.10.2007. u 23:07 · pre 231 mesec #4
Taj hibrid se jednim dijelom hladi samim protokom goriva a taj izlazni tranzistor u samom hibridu radi u impulsnom režimu znači malo radi malo ne radi, medjutim ako iz bilo kog razloga mora da bude stalno ukljucen onda se pregrije pa prvo ode u kratak spoj a zatim na njemu otpadne bonding. Inace taj elektronski sklop nije jedno kolo vec hibrid na kojemu se nalazi MCU, memorija, nekoliko operacionih pojacala, stabilizator napona, i da ne nabrajam dalje. Cesto strada zbog samog elektromagnetnog ventila kojim upravlja kad se isti zaprlja ili mu oslabi spula.
Potpis
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Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 23.10.2007. u 23:15 · pre 231 mesec #5
hahaha , dobri ste
- ljudi moji , cim se vi bakcete?
ostavite mudrovanje za mudrace
ali ipak ideja je sjajna.
Potpis
V 10
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 23.10.2007. u 23:45 · pre 231 mesec #6
Ivice hvala na odgovoru, mozes li reci jos da li je hibrid termicki spojen sa metalnim oklopom kojim se zatvara ili nije?

jer ako nije definitivno nema vajde od dodatnog hladnjaka

da li se el magnet. ventil koji se napaja moze cistiti od zaprljanja?


slicno zamisli o dojavi niskog pritiska kako su to ameri rijesili dal bi mozda bilo moguce mjeriti struju koju vuce psg5 preko jednog niskog otpora, mjeriti je preko brzog mikrokontrolera (napisali bi i program za to) i u slucaju da struja bude izvan predvidjenih vremenskih trajanja i eventualno izvan predvidjene jacine, dati dojavu vozacu da ugasi motor...? ili ukinuti preko releja dovod struje na psg5
mozda uz to bi jos trebalo i postaviti senzor temperature unutar kucista psg5, zalijepiti ga na hibrid i ukoliko temperatura bude preko nekih ne znam 300-400 stepeni (obicno tada nastaju proboji u poluprovoniku pri radnim uslovima ) i u tom slucaju gasiti dovod napona

ne znam mozda ovo djeluje nekom previse komplikovano al za elektronicara sigurno nisu neka ulaganja velika, ako uzmemo u obzir da remont ove pumpe kosta od 300-700 evra a nova 1000 i vise
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 23.10.2007. u 23:55 · pre 231 mesec #7
gornji kapak nije spojen on se moze izvaditi slobodno kad odvrtis onih 5 strafa tako da taj dodatni hladnjak sta zelis da postavis ne bih ti vrsio nikakav posao
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 23.10.2007. u 23:56 · pre 231 mesec #8
zahvaljujem i igoru69 sto mi je poslao fotografiju hibrida gdje je prekinuta zica za napajanje el mag ventila

evo i nacrt same pumpe sam nasao na netu
obiljezio sam i polozaj hibrida, ispravite me ako grijesim
ne vidim da li ima termickog spoja sa metalnim kucistem!?
http://rapidshare.com/files/64705692/vp44.JPG.html


ne mogu da vjerujem da su elektronicari iz Bosch-a ostavili tako nezasticen hibrid ako zakoci ventil ili kad se pregrije

a cuo sam da novije revizije te pumpe imaju rijesen taj problem

ali sad ko ce ga znati koja je koja revizija pumpe
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 24.10.2007. u 00:00 · pre 231 mesec #9
Citat:
igor69: gornji kapak nije spojen on se moze izvaditi slobodno kad odvrtis onih 5 strafa tako da taj dodatni hladnjak sta zelis da postavis ne bih ti vrsio nikakav posao


da da upravo sam i zbog toga postavio poslednje pitanje, znaci nista od hladnjaka :(

ipak ostalo bi mozda resenje da se postavi termicka 'guma' (ne znam tacan tehnicki naziv za tu gumu, spuzva izgleda kao zele) na hibridu i da spaja metalni oklop pa onda gore jos i hladnjak
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 24.10.2007. u 00:06 · pre 231 mesec #10
evo sta jos kazu ljudi sa neta

BOSCH VP44 INJECTION PUMP AND LIFT PUMP FAILURES EXPLAINED

The best way to start this explanation is to quote an e-mail that was found on the Cummins website. “The Bosch VP44 has not been as reliable as we had hoped”. Depending on who you talk to and who you think is being honest, you will most likely get only some of the information you need. I will endeavor here fill in the gaps and get you up to date and informed; the reason I can tell you more is because Bosch had not, until 2004, allowed any franchised dealer to do anything except to send defective pumps back to the remanufacturing facility. Long before that Blue Chip had dismantled many pumps to figure them out and diagnose what failed and what caused the failure. We do not pretend to be any where near as smart as Bosch, but since there was no experience or information or truth out there, we felt we had to get the best information we could any way possible. Probably the most informative source were the applications for the patents applicable to the VP44. It was this dismantling and learning process that allowed us to get a patent and a performance product to market first.


The most common MECHANICAL failure with the VP44 pump is the cause of the code 216. This is when weak lift pumps with low fuel pressure over a perioid of time rupture the diaphragm in the front of the injection pump and the timing piston then vibrates and wears the housing of the pump until fuel bypasses the piston and full advance can no longer be attained. When full advance can't be attained for more than 5 seconds the code 216 is set. This means your pump has lost a lot of its power and fuel mileage and needs to be replaced and upgraded.


The next most common MECHANICAL failure is that the rotor seizes in the distributor section of the pump. I should note here that all previous rotary style pumps have had this problem too, to varying degrees. The most common cause and most accepted reason for this failure on rotary pumps is lack of lubrication due to running out of fuel or the possible lower lubricity of the newer low sulphur fuels.


In the case of the VP44 it is more common for the rotor to seize in the distributor because the pressures are MUCH higher and therefore mechanical tolerances have to be much smaller. Add the fact that the rotor was not "deburred" enough or correctly during manufacture, and these failures can be easily explained. Under the higher working pressure in the VP44, the edge of the slot in the rotor deflects and interferes with the distributor. Sooner or later the result is a galling of the two parts and then binding and then seizure. The seizure causes the "Drive Plate" to break and the truck stops running, never to start again until the VP44 is replaced. There is less than a half a thousanth of an inch clearance between the two parts, so it doesn't take much to make the rotor interfere with the rotor. Pumps made recently (since about 2000) are experiencing fewer of these kinds of failures, it seems to me.


The other reason injection pumps fail is ELECTRCAL issues and failures. These are the problems that cause 99% of the drivability problems. The computer on the top of the VP44 is susceptible to heat and many many heat cycles. The components on the circuit board develop bad connections due to crystallized solder over time and the result is intermittent hard start, white smoke and drivability issues such as the common " Dead Pedal". Rarely can these issues be verified or diagnosed by codes set in the ECM.


A lot of people have heard about bad lift pumps and think they are the cause of VP44 drivability issues and therefore electrical failures; NOT SO! Starting with the early 98’s, not only were they weak pressure wise, but also had exposed terminals on the bottom that corrode off in salt environments. The way to tell if you have a corrosion sensitive pump is to see if the electrical connection is a plug on a 6-inch pigtail coming from the bottom of the pump. If the plug is on the top cover of the pump you’re all set, for that problem anyway!


If the lift pump is not delivering fuel pressure the truck stays running because there is a gear pump in the front of the injection pump, which keeps the fuel flowing, albeit at a much lower pressure than desired, and hopefully maintains lubrication to the rotor. As long as there is return fuel flow from the injection pump there is lubrication to the rotor, so low fuel pressure and certainly less return fuel makes it much easier to starve the rotor for lubrication. The only accurate way to test a lift pump is to monitor pressure UNDER LOAD and if it is above 5 PSI, no performance is lost and the pump is OK. If pressure is less than this, a modest reduction in horsepower results. The usual scenerio is a customer puts a performance box on his truck and the lift pump can't produce enough fuel to make more horsepower, and the performance product gets the blame.This sympton is most always a "Buck" as opposed to a "Surge" under load.


Often people have mistakenly said that increased pressure from add-on performance devices causes the injection pump failures. This statement only indicates their lack of knowledge, because, unlike most pumps, the VP44 pump does not create more fuel delivery by increasing lift pump pressure. The VP44 creates more fuel delivery by holding the fuel bypass solenoid closed longer. Fuel delivery pressure is controlled by the “pop off pressure “ of the injector.


The reason any aftermarket device that hooks up to the solenoid wire is blamed for the failure is that the failure 99 times out of 100 (honest numbers here) the pump fails within 20 minutes of installing and running with power enhancement. The reason this happens is because the fuel solenoid is held closed longer, therefore using more length of the slot in the rotor. The slot in the rotor overlaps a hole in the distributor to allow for different timing and amounts of fuel to be delivered to the injector and when the solenoid holds the bypass solenoid closed longer, then the high “pop off” pressure is still there when the middle of the slot overlaps the hole. The middle of the slot is the weakest area and therefore deflects, interferes with the distributor and seizes. Pump failure with fuel enhancement devices is not CAUSED by the enhancement device, but PRECIPITATED by the device. WE think this is a “glass half full” scenario rather than a “glass half empty” one, because the potential, eventual failure can be determined within controllable parameters, namely on the test run at higher power, close to home or the local dealer. The other side of the coin is, honestly, if your truck is still running 20 minutes after the installation AND BEAT RUN, you have a 90% chance your pump will not fail for a mechanical reason and therefore last until electrical issues start to show.


Lastly the installation of bigger injectors; do they alleviate the high pressure or raise the pop off pressure and therefore cause many failures of the VP44? Absolutely NOT. They are a bigger hole so fuel volume is increased at the same pressure. Remember fuel pressure is controlled by “Pop off” pressure more than the size of the hole! Aftermarket injectors that DO raise the pop off pressure do not appear to cause any problems. Bigger injectors do get more fuel into the combustion chamber sooner, therefore giving the engine better throttle response.Bigger injectors are worth it but not for the reason of saving the pump.


Thanks for reading, Chip Fisher, owner of Blue Chip Diesel Performance
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 24.10.2007. u 10:01 · pre 231 mesec #11
Najjednostavnije što ti možeš napraviti da zaštitiš svoju pumpu je da sipaš mineralno ulje prilikom tankiranja goriva jer ove pumpe najviše crkavaju radi slabog podmazivanja odnosno previše sumpora u gorivu.Sipaj na 40 litara 0,4 l najjeftinijeg mineralnog ulja,poz
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 24.10.2007. u 20:14 · pre 231 mesec #13
Da se i ja uključim na ovu temu, dosta ste stvari zaključili ali glavnu stvar niste grijanje pumpe nastaje od samog motora jednim djelom drugim djelom od samog trenja u pumpi i trećim od same elektronike, e sada kako ovo rashladit vidim da je to glavni proglem jer se ljeti kod velikih vrućina poslije gašenja auta dogodi da više neupali ili ako upali loše radi dolazi do popštanja lemova i prekida. Jedno od riješenja za rashlađivanje je nevozite na rezervi nego po mogučnosti sa rezervarom preko pola napunjenim jer se pumpa hladi gorivom koje cirkulira kroz pumpu jedan dio se potroši za rad motora a drugi se vraća i rezevar pa kad je mala količina u rezevaru brzo se zagrije na nepoželjnu temperaturu ili dodatna ugradnja hlanjaka goriva noviji automobili to već imaju, tada više neće biti tih proglema. Dodavanje ulja gorivu otom potom zavisi od kvalitete goriva ali mislim da je nepotrebno možda u nekim krajevima.
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 24.10.2007. u 21:14 · pre 231 mesec #14
Slažem se sa tobomu svemu pa i u ovome što si rekao o gorivu ali samo ako se sipa na provjerenim pumpama.U Hrvatskoj to je Tifon i Omw,kod nas u Bih to je katastrofa i ovo sipanje ulja sigurno pomaže svakome jer ne može naštetiti.Samim sipanjem se smanjuje trenje pa tako i zagrijavanje pumpe ali i dizna.A što se tiče goriva u Srbiji i u Crnoj Gori mislim da je stanje podjednako kao i u Bih,pozdrav
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 24.10.2007. u 22:11 · pre 231 mesec #16
MOTO TEST, u vezi hladjenja gorivom, na koliku se temperaturu zagrijava gorivo u filteru goriva, posto sam vidio da ima neki predgrijac u njemu? ne ide to valjda preko 40tak stepeni jer onda nista od hladjenja gorivom zar ne
drzanje na pola rezervoara nije losa ideja!

kinjo, koliku vrijednost osiguraca bih mogao postaviti i dal da bude spori ili brzi?
a bogami ti ja i ne znam gdje je tacno davac kolicine dok ne nabavim service manual od opela i bosch-ov cd za ovu pumpu

a jeste culi za te nove revizije iste pumpe, jel to kod njih bolje rijeseno?

i ne znam da nije meni vec radjeno na pumpi posto je vozena u Italiju, kad sam je uzeo polovnu bilo je 120000km (pitanje je da nije vracana km) za godinu sam presao 20000km bez problema...inace 98 je godiste


i na sta ostadosmo za sipanje ulja, da ili ne? oce li bit sta katalizatoru?
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 24.10.2007. u 22:32 · pre 231 mesec #18
Na filteru je grijač goriva da nesmrzne a on se pali kako koji od -3 do -5 i on ti neće odmoć da saćuva pumpu nebrini.
Re: Bosch VP44 pumpa - nadogradnja hladnjaka 24.10.2007. u 22:36 · pre 231 mesec #19
Ako baš hoćeš da se zaštitiš sa osiguračem postoje resetabilni kad potrošać povuće veću struju od dozvoljene on napravi prekid ali nakon kratkog vremena se opet sam uključi pa nemoraš da ga mjenjaš.
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