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PS3: Cell Architecture Explained

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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon PS3: Cell Architecture Explained21.01.2005. u 19:57 - pre 233 meseci
http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cells/Cell0.html

 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained22.01.2005. u 01:59 - pre 233 meseci
Citat:
The Free Lunch Is Over: A Fundamental Turn Toward Concurrency in Software By Herb Sutter

The biggest sea change in software development since the OO revolution is knocking at the door, and its name is Concurrency.

http://www.gotw.ca/publications/concurrency-ddj.htm

 
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CimBac
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained24.01.2005. u 22:02 - pre 233 meseci
Citat:
The Free Lunch Is Over: A Fundamental Turn Toward Concurrency in Software By Herb Sutter


Meni se cini da je ovaj clanak tacan, samo ne znam tog lika sto pise.

Ispravite me ako gresim, ali ovi problemi sa konkurentnim programiranjem ce najvise pogoditi gaming industriju (mislim na programere koji ce morati da se prebecuju na nov nacin razmisljanja, slicno prelasku sa strukturiranog na OOP), jer je ona cini mi se najzahtevnija sto se tice procesorskih moci, a i povecanje procesorskog kesa nece tu mnogo pomoci( 2mb?).


 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained24.01.2005. u 23:29 - pre 233 meseci
Citat:
CimBac: samo ne znam tog lika sto pise.

Evo ukratko o piscu članka možeš pročitati ovde: http://www.gotw.ca/
Citat:
Herb is currently a software architect at Microsoft, chair of the ISO C++ standards committee, and the author of four widely acclaimed books and hundreds of technical papers and articles on software development topics. He regularly gives invited talks and keynotes at conferences around the world and is available for private training and mentoring for new and current corporate clients.


 
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained26.01.2005. u 01:02 - pre 233 meseci
offtopic:
Ako je tako onda skidam knjigu sa police, i krecem :)) Citajuci clanak naisao sam na zanimljivu konstataciju, a to je da jezik C++ nije "odradjen" konkurentno da se tako izrazim. Mi smo na faxu radili Colibry (COncurent LIBraRY), koja podrzava konkurentnost, a inace delo naseg profesora, a mene zanima da li zna neko da li ce taj ISO C++ standards committee usvajati neku posebnu biblioteku za rad sa nitima, i gde se moze naci (nesto mi je sumnjivo da vec ne postoji)?
 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained27.01.2005. u 19:10 - pre 233 meseci
Za sada se koristi OpenMP (za hyperthreading):
http://www.openmp.org

http://csdl.computer.org/comp/...isss/2002/2246/00/22460109.pdf

Mislim da sam našao i knjigu koju spominješ:

OPERATIVNI SISTEMI (problemi i struktura)
Miroslav Hajduković
http://pipin.tmd.ns.ac.yu/nastava/os/OS2.pdf

Vidim u literaturi spominje knjigu "On Concurrent Programming" (ISBN: 0387949429) od Fred B. Schneider. Ja sam skoro nabavio tu knjigu i ne bih je baš preporučio...

Inače ovaj način programiranja važi za PS2, ali trenutno je interesantno da sve platforme uključujući i PC idu u tom smeru. PS2 ima 5 procesora i DMA što ih povezuje, IOP (stari PS1 na jednom čipu), EE (CPU), VU0 (vektorski koprocessor uz CPU), VU1 (vektorski procesor uz GS), GS (grafički procesor). U principu i PC ima ovoliko ili više procesora, ali se programer na PC nije maltretirao sinhronizacijom, komunikacijom, itd. nego je to radio OS. Takođe svi ovi procesori su bili za specifičnu primenu, pa je bilo prilično jasno koji procesor šta radi i kako se algoritmi razdvajaju... Ali sa višeprocesorskim sistemom gde su svi procesori opšte namene, ili mogu biti korišćeni u bilo kojoj kombinaciji, ovo postaje malo komplikovanije. Interesantan podatak za PS2 je da samo 10% igara (podatak je sa PS2 Dev konferencije 2003, moguće da se sada to malo promenilo mada ne značajnije) je koristilo VU0 u micro modu, tj. procesor je radio paralelno sa EE i nije bio korišćen kao koprocesor (macro mod, dok se izvšava instrukcija na koprocesoru, procesor čeka na rezultat). Sada ovo dosta govori o načinu pisanja igara na postojećim platformama. Gde su npr. fizika, kolizija, animacija, AI, i ostali delovi izmešani i međusobno zavisni, pa nije moguće jednostavno ih razdvojiti i obrađivati paralelno na VU0 dok se nešto drugo radi na EE (npr. fizika na VU0 dok je pathfinding radi na EE). Znači za sledeću generaciju igara biće potrebno svaki sistem izolovati sam za sebe (kao što se sada radi sa renderingom ili zvukom) i omogućiti mu da se izvršava paralelno sa ostalim sistemima.

Da se nadovežem na drugu temu, pa da kažem da je možda C# upravo pravljen za takve sisteme (ovo je nagađanje!), da bi programeri mogli da nastave sa starim načinom programiranja i da se o rasporedu taskova za procesore brine C# JIT kompajler...

Branimir

 
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Filip Strugar
Filip Strugar
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained31.01.2005. u 13:26 - pre 233 meseci
Citat:
bkaradzic:
Da se nadovežem na drugu temu, pa da kažem da je možda C# upravo pravljen za takve sisteme (ovo je nagađanje!), da bi programeri mogli da nastave sa starim načinom programiranja i da se o rasporedu taskova za procesore brine C# JIT kompajler...
Branimir


Ne razumem baš na šta misliš: da će kompajler moći da samostalno rasporedi pathove koje prepozna kao nezavisne na odvojene threadove i 'spoji' rezlultate? Zvuči mi malo prekomplikovano?

Upravo sam čitao zanimljiv blog/discussion iz slične oblasti, koji ide u prilog zaključcima teksta onog MS baje (The Free Lunch Is Over): da će (performance) programer u budućnosti morati da se prešaltuje na 'concurent' programiranje.

http://blogs.msdn.com/brada/archive/2004/05/12/130935.aspx

Između ostaloga, navodi se da je .NET memory model 'slabiji' od X86 memory modela, tojest da .NET programer ima mogućnost veće slobode i odgovornosti za 'ručnu' kontrolu pristupa memoriji.

Ne mogu reći da sam baš sve razumeo, ali otprilike stvar je sledeća: Za 90% primena se koriste standardni lock mehanizmi koji su (relativno) jednostavni i za koje nije potrebno nikakvo znanje memory modela platforme, magije, itd. Medjutim, u preostalih 10% slučajeva kada su performanse od kritične važnosti sinhronizacija se mora obaviti ručno i tu implementacija zavisi od memory modela platforme, a u konkretnom slučaju .NET platforma pruža više slobode u svom memory modelu nego X86 - što ide u prilog potencijalnim performansama .NET platforme u polju thread sinhronizacije, ali i komplikovanosti programiranja. (Što se odnosi na tih 10% slučajeva, u preostalih 90% .NET programer samo koristi lock() i ne razmišlja o svemu ovome.)

Da pojasnim, memory model definiše nivo slobode kompajlera i hardvera prilikom upisa i čitanja memorije tj koliko sme da ispremešta pristupe memoriji u cilju optimizacije.

http://discuss.develop.com/arc...d0203B&L=DOTNET&P=R375
 
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Filip Strugar
Filip Strugar
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained31.01.2005. u 13:58 - pre 233 meseci
I da dodam, po mom mišljenjuje tekst sa linka http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cells/Cell0.html je zanimljiv, informativan, i debilan u svojim zaključcima i njihovoj argumentaciji.
Pre će Intel/AMD pokupiti dobre ideje Cell-a (tokom tranzicije na ozbiljni multiprocesing) nego što će Cell ikada zavladati desktop tržištem. A MS tiho i polako povećava bazu softvera i developera za .NET, pa će, ako se ikada ukaže potreba ili opasnost, moći da implementira .NET na drugu hardversku platformu i to naplati...
 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained01.02.2005. u 22:44 - pre 233 meseci
Citat:
Filip Strugar: Ne razumem baš na šta misliš: da će kompajler moći da samostalno rasporedi pathove koje prepozna kao nezavisne na odvojene threadove i 'spoji' rezlultate? Zvuči mi malo prekomplikovano?

Od prilike... Mislio sam više da kompajler prepozna i razdvoji program u neke logičke celine, a da JIT kompajler odluči kakav raspored je najbolji za trenutnu platformu na kojoj se program izvršava. Ne kažem da će biti optimalnije od optimizacija koje programer može da primeni, ali dugoročno će verovatno biti lakše skalirati ovakvu aplikaciju nego neku koja je ručno optimizovana za određeni sistem.

Ja ovaj korak vidim kao prelazak sa asemblera na C. Krajem 90-ih sa P2 je postalo skoro besmisleno pisati program u asembleru. Jer količina vremena provedena pišući asembler, nije proizvela dovoljno razlike u performansama (između istog asm vs. C koda) da bi bila opravdana. Dok je u npr. 386 ili 486 danima razlika bila itekako vidljiva. Onda čak i da se pisao kod u asembleru za P2 taj isti kod nije baš bio najoptimalniji na starim platformama. Sa C kompajlerom je bilo lako samo promeniti switch i kompajlirati za određeni procesor, dok bi za asembler trebalo menjati source... Od prilike tako isto vidim da bi u budućnosti C++ kakav je danas bez JIT kompajlera mogao da bude zamenjen na sledećoj generaciji procesora sa nekim managed C++ ili C#. Opet naglašavam da je ovo samo nagađanje i uglavnom mislim na platforme koje se stalno menjaju (tj. PC). Konzole će se uvek praviti po jednoj specifikaciji, tako da će tamo biti moguće ići na najniži nivo i optimizovati do krajnjih granica, bez brige za kompatibilnost između istog tipa konzole.

Evo još malo na temu Cell procesora...
The Cell chip - what it is, and why you should care
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/01/cell_analysis_part_one/

Branimir

 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained07.02.2005. u 21:29 - pre 232 meseci
Citat:
THOSE CRAZY funsters at the Wall Street Journal have decided to throw caution to the wind and unveil some of the juicy details of Sony and IBM's new Cell processor early, today. The chip is being shown off later today at the International Solid State Circuits Conference.

The WSJ outlines the purpose of the Cell processor, mentioning that the aim of the chip is to help break the Microsoft / Intel dominance of computing architectures, and to prevent it from extending into the living room. The chip is, of course, at the heart of one box that is sure to make a big entrance into the lounge later this year - the PlayStation 3.

According to papers to be presented at the ISSCC, the initial Cell chip has a single processing unit that can pass computing tasks out to as many as 8 other processors. Thus, working in tandem, it can process up to 10 sequences of instructions simultaneously. This compares well with rival Intel x86 architectures, which can process just two, according the conference paper.

According to the Journal, Sony and IBM are working on creating a Cell-based workstation for game designers and graphics animators. The big test for the architecture could well be how easy it is to programme for - games houses are unlikely to want to spent huge amounts of time unlearning what they have learned. Sony are due to present the full technical details of the machine in Tokyo next month.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21131
http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6677

UPDATE: Još malo Cell hype... :)
Citat:
The three companies were thin on other details. Cell will be capable of running multiple operating systems simultaneously, but representatives declined to be elaborate beyond the uses for the Linux protocol. The chips are capable of running faster than 4 GHz, and the companies claimed a 10x performance improvement over "the latest PC processors," but no additional details were provided.

http://www.thestreet.com/_yaho...&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

Citat:
Setting up a battle for the future of computing, engineers from IBM, Sony and Toshiba unveiled details Monday of a microprocessor they claim has the muscle of a supercomputer and can power everything from video game consoles to business computers.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050207/cell_processor_4.html

UPDATE #2: Slike...
http://www.electronicsweekly.c.../article.asp?liArticleID=38754

Citat:
- The first version of the chip will run at speeds faster than 4GHz. Engineers were vague about how much faster, but reports from design partners say 4.6GHz is likely. By comparison, the fastest current Pentium PC processor tops out at 3.8GHz.

- Cell can process 256 billion calculations per second (256 gigaflops), falling a wee bit short of marketing hyperbole calling it a "supercomputer on a chip." The slowest machine on the current list of the Top 500 supercomputers can do 851 gigaflops.

- The chip will have 2.5MB of on-chip memory and have the ability to shuttle data to and from off-chip memory at speeds up to 100 gigabytes per second, using XDR and FlexIO interface technology licensed from Rambus.

- "One of the key messages you hear from the architects of next-generation chips is that their performance is being limited by off-chip bandwidth," said Rich Warmke, product marketing manager at Rambus. "We've really licked that with Cell. One hundred gigabytes per second is really unprecedented in the industry."

- The chip will have 234 million transistors, measure 221mm square and be produced using advanced 90-nanometer chipmaking processes. Peter Glaskowsky, a consultant at research company The Envisioneering Group, said he expects Cell production to shift to a 65-nanometer process, however, as IBM introduces the chipmaking technology later this year.

http://news.zdnet.com/PlayStat...rss&tag=feed&subj=zdnn

UPDATE #3: Na Srpskom...
http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/...av_category=&nav_id=161791

UPDATE #4:
Citat:
Sony Confirms Pre-E3 PlayStation 3 Announcement

According to unnamed SCEA representatives speaking to by consumer site GameSpot, Sony "will have an event to premiere [its] next-generation system" before E3.

Although there have been a few less blatant allusions to an unveiling of the console before E3, this is the first time the company has openly stated the fact, apparently contradicting recent comments about a debut at the E3 expo in May.

Sony has so far failed to indicate where and when the debut will take place, but has indicated that the public premiere will not occur at next month's Game Developers Conference, though more broad technical discussion may take place there. The most likely scenario would be a Japanese debut, similar to the Millennium event held in 2000 for the PlayStation 2.

However, the comments could equally refer to a U.S. event just a few days before E3. Indeed, Sony may simply be trying to force Microsoft’s hand in announcing the Xbox 2 hardware, a process long thought to be dependent on Sony’s own announcements.

Since Microsoft admitted that they would also not be premiering the next generation Xbox at GDC, the implication has been that it would not then be seen until E3. If Sony were able to show the PlayStation 3 before the new Xbox then they would have achieved first blood in the next generation PR console war – especially since Microsoft have long indicated that they intend the new Xbox to be the first next generation console to market.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=4929

 
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Filip Strugar
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained10.02.2005. u 08:50 - pre 232 meseci
Evo i malo komentara 'sa druge strane' :)

Citat:

6.) The OS will handle the 8 additional vector processors so the programmer doesn't need to.
Bwahahaha! No way. This is a delicate bit of coding that is going to need to be tweaked by highly-paid coders for every single game. Letting on OS predictively determine what code needs to get sent to what processor to run is insane in this case. The cost of switching out instructions is going to be very high, so any switch will need to be carefully considered by the designer, or the frame-rate will hit rock-bottom.


http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=138810&cid=11616545

Citat:

Similarly, feelings ran high about the Emotion Engine, the microprocessor inside the original PlayStation 2 game console. Analysts said it could undercut chips from Intel and Advanced Micro Devices in PCs, and become the nerve center for DVD players and other home electronics. Toshiba even created a company, Artile, to license the Emotion.

But the Emotion Engine never migrated outside the PlayStation, and Toshiba snuffed out Artile in 2003. The PlayStation 2, meanwhile, didn't live up to the suggestion that it would serve as a conduit for movies, TV, e-mail and the Internet.

This sort of excitement and speculation about chips is driven by what I call the "Battlestar Galactica" principle. It goes as follows: If the domination of the universe isn't contested on a weekly basis, ratings will go down. Analysts, reporters, consumers and even executives need a gladiatorial contest to keep the job interesting.


http://news.com.com/Cell+chip+...+hype/2010-1006_3-5568046.html
 
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NastyBoy
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained10.02.2005. u 10:08 - pre 232 meseci
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-1.ars
 
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Filip Strugar
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained10.02.2005. u 13:57 - pre 232 meseci
El ima neko mozda kako ce to (ili vec sada?) izgledati u kodu? Ja pojma nemam kako to generalno izgleda na nekom vektorskom procesoru sa programerske perspektive?

Npr, ako imamo zadatak da pretrazimo dve nepovezane kolekcije, nadjemo neka dva elementa po nekom kriterijumu, i onda nesto radimo sa njima, to trenutno izgleda ovako:

Code:

{
    El eA, eB;

    eA = collA.find( paramsA );
    eB = collA.find( paramsB );

    DoWork( eA, eB );
}


Na nekom postojecem (PC) multiprocesorskom sistemu moze se isplatiti koristiti odvojene threadove za ta dva find()-a, ali je overhead koriscenja multithreadinga prevelik (i procesorski i programerski) osim ako ta pretraga nije dovoljno spora.

Znaci, morao bi postojati neki poseban sistem za paralelno programiranje bez ta dva overheada, tipa

Code:

{
    ParallelContext find_element_context;
    El eA, eB;
 
    Parallel( find_element_context )
        eA = collA.find( paramsA );

    Parallel( find_element_context )
        eB = collA.find( paramsB );

    DoWork( eA, eB );
}


gde bi programer samo definisao delove koda za koje zna sigurno da mogu raditi paralelno, i ostatak posla prepustio kompajleru?
 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained10.02.2005. u 18:47 - pre 232 meseci
Citat:
Filip Strugar: El ima neko mozda kako ce to (ili vec sada?) izgledati u kodu?

Ovo je kako izgleda sa OpenMP. Uglavnom se odnosi na hyperthreading.
Citat:
/******************************************************************************
* OpenMP Example - Sections Work-sharing - C/C++ Version
* FILE: omp_workshare2.c
* DESCRIPTION:
* In this example, the OpenMP SECTION directive is used to assign
* different array operations to threads that execute a SECTION. Each
* thread receives its own copy of the result array to work with.
* SOURCE: Blaise Barney 5/99
* LAST REVISED: 01/09/04
******************************************************************************/

#include <omp.h>
#define N 50

main ()
{

int i, nthreads, tid;
float a[N], b[N], c[N];

/* Some initializations */
for (i=0; i<N; i++)
a = b = i * 1.0;

#pragma omp parallel shared(a,b,nthreads) private(c,i,tid)
{
tid = omp_get_thread_num();
if (tid == 0)
{
nthreads = omp_get_num_threads();
printf("Number of threads = %d\n", nthreads);
}
printf("Thread %d starting...\n",tid);

#pragma omp sections nowait
{
#pragma omp section
{
printf("Thread %d doing section 1\n",tid);
for (i=0; i<N; i++)
{
c = a + b;
printf("Thread %d: c[%d]= %f\n",tid,i,c);
}
}

#pragma omp section
{
printf("Thread %d doing section 2\n",tid);
for (i=0; i<N; i++)
{
c = a * b;
printf("Thread %d: c[%d]= %f\n",tid,i,c);
}
}

} /* end of sections */

printf("Thread %d done.\n",tid);

} /* end of parallel section */

}

http://www.llnl.gov/computing/tutorials/openMP/exercise.html

Introduction to Parallel Computing
http://www.llnl.gov/computing/tutorials/parallel_comp/

Branimir

 
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Filip Strugar
Filip Strugar
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained11.02.2005. u 09:58 - pre 232 meseci
Wow kolka oblast.

Kakva je 'politička' situacija oko OpenMP? Čini mi se na prvi pogled da je već dosta prihvaćen.

Na njihovom sajtu se ne pominje nigde MS, ali cini mi se da sve raznorazne verzije intelovog windows kompajlera podržavaju OpenMP.

Plus, našao sam na Whidbey product info-u:

<quote>
Visual C++ "Whidbey" will offers a variety of high performance computing functionality. Of particular note are the following features:

* Full OpenMP 2.0 support. This will allow you to use the popular OpenMP API to write multithreaded programs, even incorporating .NET based programming.
...
<\quote>

http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/productinfo/faq/default.aspx
 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained11.02.2005. u 19:49 - pre 232 meseci
Citat:
Filip Strugar: Kakva je 'politička' situacija oko OpenMP?

Povoljna... :)

Spisak kompajlera koji već podržavaju standard:
http://www.compunity.org/software.htm
http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/gomp/

Branimir

 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained14.03.2005. u 23:39 - pre 231 meseci
The Quest for More Processing Power

Part One: "Is the single core CPU doomed?"
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2343

Part Two: "Multi-core and multi-threaded gaming"
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2377

 
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bkaradzic
Branimir Karadžić
ArenaNet
Seattle, WA

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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained23.03.2005. u 21:20 - pre 231 meseci
Sa http://www.gizmodo.com/


http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/ps3-pdf.jpg

UPDATE: Lažnjak... :)
http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7607


[Ovu poruku je menjao bkaradzic dana 24.03.2005. u 19:13 GMT+1]
 
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JogyII

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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained23.03.2005. u 22:21 - pre 231 meseci
jedva cekam da se pojave verzije linuxa i softwer za rendering za PS3, s obzirom na nerealno niske cene konzola prakticno mozes da zamenis ceo rendering klaster jednom konzolom jeftinijom od najjeftinijeg PC racunara



So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish


 
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yooyo

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icon Re: PS3: Cell Architecture Explained24.03.2005. u 07:30 - pre 231 meseci
Izgleda da je slika fake...

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/p...etails-coming-pree3-037035.php
 
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